Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

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C Y
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Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

C Y
Dunno if these relate to Mathaction, the pamphlet structure, or what
exactly so I'll just throw them out:

a)  I'm building a bibtex file that is specialized to the units and
dimensions effort - how would this file be handled as 1) part of a
MathAction rendering and 2) as part of the Axiom source tree if it
makes it that far?  Should it just be uploaded onto MathAction and the
latex file will find it there, or is it a little more complicated?

b)  I'm using the hyperref package with a few tweaks to things like
color settings to provide things like a clickable table of contents and
active links to references - is this OK or is this something we don't
want to do with pamphlet files?  I'm assuming we want a uniform look
for pamphlet files so perhaps I could submit my proposed look for
consideration?  Also, how will MathAction react to it?  I've been
assuming the TeX distribution on the server is the full tetex, but
perhaps I should check that assumption.

Cheers,
CY


               
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Re: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

daly
you're semi-innovating here, which is a good thing.

re: bibtex

there is some prior art. see src/doc/axim.bib.pamphlet.
consider rewriting/redesigning/redoing it.

re: hyperlinks

hyperlinks are fine in pamphlet files, i think.
they'll cause us some dependency pain but they are worth it.

not sure how they will impact mathaction and pdf. needs to be investigated.

t



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Re: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

C Y
--- root <[hidden email]> wrote:

> you're semi-innovating here, which is a good thing.
>
> re: bibtex
>
> there is some prior art. see src/doc/axim.bib.pamphlet.
> consider rewriting/redesigning/redoing it.

I take it you're referring to this?:
http://wiki.axiom-developer.org/axiom--test--1/src/doc/AxiomBib

I think that's a little different from what I mean - that (as far as I
can tell) is a way for pamphlet files to reference other pamphlet
files.  That's good but not what I have in mind - I'm actually
referencing books and papers from external sources, more like a
research paper.  I guess you could say I'm trying to more or less make
this a paper which also happens to be an Axiom pamphlet and
implementation of the ideas under discussion, sort of like your
"literate journal" idea.  (I know that the idea there is mainly for the
research and implementation of new mathematical ideas, but I like the
format and it helps to organize my thinking.)  So this I guess would be
a UnitsandDimensions.bib file to go along with
UnitsandDimensions.pamphlet.  I doubt it would make sense to include it
in a global bib file, and if Axiom begins incorporating lots of papers
trying to maintain one huge bib file could get pretty hairy.

> re: hyperlinks
>
> hyperlinks are fine in pamphlet files, i think.
> they'll cause us some dependency pain but they are worth it.

I think they hyperref package is pretty standard nowadays, for what
that's worth.  Or did you mean dependency pain in pamphlets referring
to each other?
 
> not sure how they will impact mathaction and pdf. needs to be
> investigated.

pdf at least should be no problem - I'm generating pdf now without too
much issue (a few odd warnings I don't really understand, but the
resulting pdf looks fine and seems to have working hyperlinks.)

Cheers,
CY


               
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RE: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking ofthem

Bill Page-2
In reply to this post by C Y
On November 7, 2005 10:49 AM C Y wrote:
>
> Dunno if these relate to Mathaction, the pamphlet structure, or
> what exactly so I'll just throw them out:

Yes, they do relate to how pamphlets are implemented on
MathAction.

>
> a)  I'm building a bibtex file that is specialized to the units
> and dimensions effort - how would this file be handled as
> 1) part of a MathAction rendering

On MathAction the bibtex file will have to be located in a place
where LaTeX will see it after weave is applied to the pamphlet.
This is similar to the problem of handling external 'ps' and
other graphic format files in the Axiom book pamphlets. To do
this it is necessary for me to setup what is in Zope terminology
is known as a LocalFile and make it part of the pamphlet folder
structure. I can help you to do this when you are ready to put
something on MathAction (soon I hope :).

> and 2) as part of the Axiom source tree if it makes it that far?

I think the answer is similar but simplier. It just needs to go
in a sub-directory of the directory where you decide you want to
keep the pamphlet file.

> Should it just be uploaded onto MathAction and the latex file
> will find it there, or is it a little more complicated?

Yes, and yes. :)

>
> b)  I'm using the hyperref package with a few tweaks to things
> like color settings to provide things like a clickable table of
> contents and active links to references - is this OK or is this
> something we don't want to do with pamphlet files?

hyperref works fine with pamphlet files on MathAction.

> I'm assuming we want a uniform look for pamphlet files so perhaps
> I could submit my proposed look for consideration?  Also, how will
> MathAction react to it?

Should be no problem. If there is, we will fix it so it works.

> I've been assuming the TeX distribution on the server is the full
> tetex, but perhaps I should check that assumption.

Yes it is a very recent tetex (actually pdtex) distribution.

Regards,
Bill Page.




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RE: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking ofthem

Bill Page-2
In reply to this post by C Y
On November 7, 2005 11:10 AM C Y wrote:

> ...
> So this I guess would be a UnitsandDimensions.bib file to
> go along with UnitsandDimensions.pamphlet.  I doubt it would
> make sense to include it in a global bib file ...

I think this is an interesting question that I think must have
been addressed by the literate programming people at one time
or another.

Certainly there is no technical problem if we maintain the bib
file outside of the pamphlet file - the same way the external
graphics files are handled now.

It is tempting to suggest that all you need to do is include
the contents of your 'UnitsandDimensions.bib' file as a named
chunk in the pamphlet file. But the 'weave' operation applied
to a pamphlet file produces only a LaTeX file as output which
is then passed to LaTeX. If the bib file is a chunk in the
pamphlet file then there would also need to be an intermediate
'tangle' operation to extract it as a file for reference by
LaTeX. But that approach would mean in general a potentially
much more complex process to construct documents from pamphlet
files.

I think we (you?) should consult the literate programming
community and ask what is the recommended practice in the use
of bib files and noweb documents.

Regards,
Bill Page.




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Re: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

daly
In reply to this post by C Y
the bibtex file in src/doc is intended to be the standard place
where bibtex references from axiom reside. this keeps the bibtex
reference files from showing up all over the place.

it only references axiom files now because that's all i had at the time.

the idea of the bibtex file as a pamphlet file is that bibtex references
would be kept with annotations so people could figure out what the
reference was about (an abstract). that way people could expand the
annotations as well as give references. and people who wanted to know
what the reference was about but did not have the reference could read
the annotations.

the size of the file isn't an issue. the ability to manage the
references is an issue. if every pamphlet file has its own bibtex
and index files we'll have a hairball of files.

t


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Re: Couple of quick questions while I'm thinking of them

C Y
--- root <[hidden email]> wrote:

> the bibtex file in src/doc is intended to be the standard place
> where bibtex references from axiom reside. this keeps the bibtex
> reference files from showing up all over the place.
>
> it only references axiom files now because that's all i had at the
> time.

OK.  I'll look it over and try merging in my stuff.

> the idea of the bibtex file as a pamphlet file is that bibtex
> references would be kept with annotations so people could figure
> out what the reference was about (an abstract). that way people
> could expand the annotations as well as give references. and people
> who wanted to know what the reference was about but did not have the
> reference could read the annotations.

Hmm.  OK.  That's a little more extensive than my original bibliography
was going to be.  I'll go back and start summarizing each paper as I go
(or do you want the actual paper abstracts?)

> the size of the file isn't an issue. the ability to manage the
> references is an issue. if every pamphlet file has its own bibtex
> and index files we'll have a hairball of files.

OK.  Should we have some kind of indexing scheme that identifies which
pamphlet files a paper relates to?  Maybe bibtex itself has some
optional field for that, I'll have to look.

One problem I can forsee is the case where a pamphlet wants to include
in its bibliography papers or books it didn't directly reference in the
text itself.  There is an option for this but IIRC it's an all or
nothing scheme - you can either include JUST the papers you reference
or the entire contents of the bibliography. (Eeek)  I suppose the
simple solution is to just include a "For Further Reading" section that
references everything the rest of the text didn't get.

Cheers,
CY


               
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