Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans

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Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans

Ze'ev Clementson-2
Hello,

I have been using the FreeSans font in an application that displays
Yiddish text using Unicode combining characters. In Yiddish, for the
"pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" character combinations, the
convention is to "raise" the vowel. This is done for Yiddish only, not
Hebrew. With FreeSans, "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displayed properly;
however, "khirik yud" is not. I looked through the source code of
FreeSans.sfd to try to determine why this was happening and saw that
there was a yodhiriqhebrew ("khirik yud") definition set up; however,
it was not being displayed. The yodyodpatahhebrew ("pasekh tsvey
yudn") definition was being displayed properly so I looked through the
source to see why it was being displayed and the yodhiriqhebrew
combination was not.

First, since "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displaying with a raised vowel, I
looked at the definition for it in the font source:

StartChar: yodyodpatahhebrew
Encoding: 64287 64287 1299
Width: 400
Flags: HMW
LayerCount: 2
Fore
Refer: 853 1463 S 1 0 0 1 -99 280 2
Refer: 2821 1522 S 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
Validated: 32769
Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
yodyodhebrew patahhebrew
LCarets2: 1 0
Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodyodhebrew
patahhebrew
EndChar

I noted that the "Ligature2" element has two separate definitions for
ccmp & liga.

Then, I looked for the definition of "khirik yud" in the source:

StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
Width: 200
Flags: HMW
LayerCount: 2
Fore
Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
Validated: 32769
Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
EndChar

The "Ligature2" element had only one definition for ccmp.

So, I used FontForge to add the Ligature2 liga reference:

StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
Width: 200
Flags: HMW
LayerCount: 2
Fore
Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
Validated: 32769
Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
EndChar

Now, for both "pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations, the
vowels are raised. So, for Yiddish-only, this modification works fine
and the mod could potentially be incorporated into the font.
Unfortunately, the vowels are raised regardless of whether I display
Hebrew text (the vowels shouldn't be raised for Hebrew) with an HTML
xml:lang="he" lang="he" or Yiddish text (the vowels should be raised
for Yiddish) with an HTML  xml:lang="yi" lang="yi".

So, my question is: how is it possible to specify that the "pasekh
tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations will be used with raised
vowels for Yiddish but without raised vowels for Hebrew? Is this a bug
in the font definition or do I need to do something else in my HTML
code to correctly indicate whether the font should use the 'liga'
lookup definitions?

- Ze'ev

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Fwd: Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans

Steve White-9
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve White <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Freefont-bugs] Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans
To: Ze'ev Clementson <[hidden email]>


Hi Ze'ev,

This is a bug in FreeSans.

The history of it, near as I can piece together:  I personally put in
the feature tables
for Hebrew, saw the need for positioning regarding these letters, made
a release.
Then sombody pointed out Hebrew wasn't working right, and I made a
quick fix of disabling
the Yiddish positioniing.  There it stands.

It would be expeditious for you to open a proper bug report at
  https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=freefont
where we can effectively track progress.

I also need:
   1) a bit of actual Unicode text showing the issue
   2) to know which OS and version you're using
   3) to know which application software you're using.

I'll take care of it as soon as I can, given this info.

Thanks for writing!

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Ze'ev Clementson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been using the FreeSans font in an application that displays
> Yiddish text using Unicode combining characters. In Yiddish, for the
> "pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" character combinations, the
> convention is to "raise" the vowel. This is done for Yiddish only, not
> Hebrew. With FreeSans, "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displayed properly;
> however, "khirik yud" is not. I looked through the source code of
> FreeSans.sfd to try to determine why this was happening and saw that
> there was a yodhiriqhebrew ("khirik yud") definition set up; however,
> it was not being displayed. The yodyodpatahhebrew ("pasekh tsvey
> yudn") definition was being displayed properly so I looked through the
> source to see why it was being displayed and the yodhiriqhebrew
> combination was not.
>
> First, since "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displaying with a raised vowel, I
> looked at the definition for it in the font source:
>
> StartChar: yodyodpatahhebrew
> Encoding: 64287 64287 1299
> Width: 400
> Flags: HMW
> LayerCount: 2
> Fore
> Refer: 853 1463 S 1 0 0 1 -99 280 2
> Refer: 2821 1522 S 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
> Validated: 32769
> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
> yodyodhebrew patahhebrew
> LCarets2: 1 0
> Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodyodhebrew
> patahhebrew
> EndChar
>
> I noted that the "Ligature2" element has two separate definitions for
> ccmp & liga.
>
> Then, I looked for the definition of "khirik yud" in the source:
>
> StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
> Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
> Width: 200
> Flags: HMW
> LayerCount: 2
> Fore
> Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
> Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
> Validated: 32769
> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
> yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
> EndChar
>
> The "Ligature2" element had only one definition for ccmp.
>
> So, I used FontForge to add the Ligature2 liga reference:
>
> StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
> Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
> Width: 200
> Flags: HMW
> LayerCount: 2
> Fore
> Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
> Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
> Validated: 32769
> Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
> yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
> EndChar
>
> Now, for both "pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations, the
> vowels are raised. So, for Yiddish-only, this modification works fine
> and the mod could potentially be incorporated into the font.
> Unfortunately, the vowels are raised regardless of whether I display
> Hebrew text (the vowels shouldn't be raised for Hebrew) with an HTML
> xml:lang="he" lang="he" or Yiddish text (the vowels should be raised
> for Yiddish) with an HTML  xml:lang="yi" lang="yi".
>
> So, my question is: how is it possible to specify that the "pasekh
> tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations will be used with raised
> vowels for Yiddish but without raised vowels for Hebrew? Is this a bug
> in the font definition or do I need to do something else in my HTML
> code to correctly indicate whether the font should use the 'liga'
> lookup definitions?
>
> - Ze'ev
>

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Re: Fwd: Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans

Ze'ev Clementson-2
Hi Steve,

Ok, I have filed a bug report: https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?35409

Thanks,
Ze'ev

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Steve White
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve White <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Freefont-bugs] Placement of khirik-yud for Yiddish in FreeSans
> To: Ze'ev Clementson <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Hi Ze'ev,
>
> This is a bug in FreeSans.
>
> The history of it, near as I can piece together:  I personally put in
> the feature tables
> for Hebrew, saw the need for positioning regarding these letters, made
> a release.
> Then sombody pointed out Hebrew wasn't working right, and I made a
> quick fix of disabling
> the Yiddish positioniing.  There it stands.
>
> It would be expeditious for you to open a proper bug report at
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?group=freefont
> where we can effectively track progress.
>
> I also need:
>    1) a bit of actual Unicode text showing the issue
>    2) to know which OS and version you're using
>    3) to know which application software you're using.
>
> I'll take care of it as soon as I can, given this info.
>
> Thanks for writing!
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Ze'ev Clementson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been using the FreeSans font in an application that displays
>> Yiddish text using Unicode combining characters. In Yiddish, for the
>> "pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" character combinations, the
>> convention is to "raise" the vowel. This is done for Yiddish only, not
>> Hebrew. With FreeSans, "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displayed properly;
>> however, "khirik yud" is not. I looked through the source code of
>> FreeSans.sfd to try to determine why this was happening and saw that
>> there was a yodhiriqhebrew ("khirik yud") definition set up; however,
>> it was not being displayed. The yodyodpatahhebrew ("pasekh tsvey
>> yudn") definition was being displayed properly so I looked through the
>> source to see why it was being displayed and the yodhiriqhebrew
>> combination was not.
>>
>> First, since "pasekh tsvey yudn" is displaying with a raised vowel, I
>> looked at the definition for it in the font source:
>>
>> StartChar: yodyodpatahhebrew
>> Encoding: 64287 64287 1299
>> Width: 400
>> Flags: HMW
>> LayerCount: 2
>> Fore
>> Refer: 853 1463 S 1 0 0 1 -99 280 2
>> Refer: 2821 1522 S 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
>> Validated: 32769
>> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
>> yodyodhebrew patahhebrew
>> LCarets2: 1 0
>> Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodyodhebrew
>> patahhebrew
>> EndChar
>>
>> I noted that the "Ligature2" element has two separate definitions for
>> ccmp & liga.
>>
>> Then, I looked for the definition of "khirik yud" in the source:
>>
>> StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
>> Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
>> Width: 200
>> Flags: HMW
>> LayerCount: 2
>> Fore
>> Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
>> Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
>> Validated: 32769
>> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
>> yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
>> EndChar
>>
>> The "Ligature2" element had only one definition for ccmp.
>>
>> So, I used FontForge to add the Ligature2 liga reference:
>>
>> StartChar: yodhiriqhebrew
>> Encoding: 64285 64285 1297
>> Width: 200
>> Flags: HMW
>> LayerCount: 2
>> Fore
>> Refer: 875 1497 N 1 0 0 1 0 0 2
>> Refer: 850 1460 N 1 0 0 1 -203 278 2
>> Validated: 32769
>> Ligature2: "'liga' Standard Ligatures in Hebrew subtable" yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
>> Ligature2: "'ccmp' Glyph Composition/Decomposition in Yiddish"
>> yodhebrew hiriqhebrew
>> EndChar
>>
>> Now, for both "pasekh tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations, the
>> vowels are raised. So, for Yiddish-only, this modification works fine
>> and the mod could potentially be incorporated into the font.
>> Unfortunately, the vowels are raised regardless of whether I display
>> Hebrew text (the vowels shouldn't be raised for Hebrew) with an HTML
>> xml:lang="he" lang="he" or Yiddish text (the vowels should be raised
>> for Yiddish) with an HTML  xml:lang="yi" lang="yi".
>>
>> So, my question is: how is it possible to specify that the "pasekh
>> tsvey yudn" and "khirik yud" combinations will be used with raised
>> vowels for Yiddish but without raised vowels for Hebrew? Is this a bug
>> in the font definition or do I need to do something else in my HTML
>> code to correctly indicate whether the font should use the 'liga'
>> lookup definitions?
>>
>> - Ze'ev
>>
>