Scottish Gaelic translation

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Scottish Gaelic translation

Fòram na Gàidhlig
Hi all,

I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent game
into Scottish Gaelic :)

The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.

I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.

The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a problem
there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots in the
future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual country).
We could use this one though:

http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg

which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.

Cheers

GunChleoc

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Andreas Lochmann-2
Hi,

thank you for your support.
But I have to admit that I'm sceptical.
Let me explain:
The language with the least number of native
speakers we currently support is Belarussian
with approximately 3,700,000 speakers.
If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct,
Scottish Gaelic is natively spoken by 63,000
people, right?

The problem is not in the number of speakers.
Actually, the problem is in the number of
potential translators. In contrast to most
other projects, Enigma's translations are vast
and ever-growing, as the number of levels
steadily grows. There is no end on the effort.
In languages with many speakers, there are
many people who can continue with the
translation in case the original translator
cannot continue her work. In Scottish Gaelic,
you and maybe Yannis will be the only ones
who can do the translation. It will be a task
for a life-time for you. Are you really willing
to accept this burden?

Best regards,
Andreas

(I wanted to use a Gaelic "best regards",
but Google Translator does not support
it ... what is it in Scottish Gaelic? :-)  )


Am 17.02.2014 23:33, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent
> game into Scottish Gaelic :)
>
> The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.
>
> I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.
>
> The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a
> problem there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots
> in the future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual
> country). We could use this one though:
>
> http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg
>
>
> which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.
>
> Cheers
>
> GunChleoc
>
> _______________________________________________
> Enigma-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel



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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Erich Schubert
Hi,
Maybe such languages can be distributed as add-on packages?
Shouldn't be much more than a flag and the translation file; albeit it
might be tricky to get gettext to find the file then.

Anyway, this would allow translations for smaller languages to be
asynchronously updated (or not updated). The web site could then list
them per version; and it would allow a translator to step up and
contribute a translation later.

Also note that translations of Enigma sometimes cannot or should not
be made automatically. There are some puzzles based on language;
translating them will make the level unsolvable, unfortunately. See
"the document" in Enigma I for an example. (Spoilers on the problem:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=546795 )

I'm not sure how to best handle such cases. Mark the level
untranslatable explicitly / require the translation to be done
manually inside the level file?
(I havn't checked if this problem has been addressed for this
particular level already.)

Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656

There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
translations. This is why I did not want to manually include single
translations in the .desktop file, when the process should be
automated for translator convenience.

Regards,
Erich

On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Lochmann
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> thank you for your support.
> But I have to admit that I'm sceptical.
> Let me explain:
> The language with the least number of native
> speakers we currently support is Belarussian
> with approximately 3,700,000 speakers.
> If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct,
> Scottish Gaelic is natively spoken by 63,000
> people, right?
>
> The problem is not in the number of speakers.
> Actually, the problem is in the number of
> potential translators. In contrast to most
> other projects, Enigma's translations are vast
> and ever-growing, as the number of levels
> steadily grows. There is no end on the effort.
> In languages with many speakers, there are
> many people who can continue with the
> translation in case the original translator
> cannot continue her work. In Scottish Gaelic,
> you and maybe Yannis will be the only ones
> who can do the translation. It will be a task
> for a life-time for you. Are you really willing
> to accept this burden?
>
> Best regards,
> Andreas
>
> (I wanted to use a Gaelic "best regards",
> but Google Translator does not support
> it ... what is it in Scottish Gaelic? :-)  )
>
>
> Am 17.02.2014 23:33, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent
>> game into Scottish Gaelic :)
>>
>> The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.
>>
>> I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.
>>
>> The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a
>> problem there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots
>> in the future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual
>> country). We could use this one though:
>>
>> http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg
>>
>>
>> which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> GunChleoc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Enigma-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel



--

best regards,
Erich Schubert

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Fòram na Gàidhlig
Sorry, something must have been wrong in the settings so this didn't go
to the list.

First of all, thank you for your fast reply.

I do have a partner in crime who could take over if I get run over by a
bus. Check his homepage: http://www.igaidhlig.net/

If we should be unable to support the translation anymore, say 20 years
in the future, you could always remove the translation then. Also, a
bomb might drop on the key developers and stop all improvements to the
code, so let's just give up coding anything for this game right now,
shall we?

Frankly, this is the first time I have run into this kind of rejection
from a FOSS project. Or should I use a stronger word, be somewhat
dramatic and say discrimination?

I apologize for my sarcasm, but I didn't expect to have to tilt at
windmills for this - minority languages have to tilt at too many of them
as it is. I also know that you meant no offense, but with issues like
this it is hard for me to keep my cool. I guess most majority language
speakers have no idea what it feels like, and why should they ;)


As to the problem with switching languages, I built this from trunk today:

svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/enigma-game/source/trunk

Shouldn't the fixes that have been done for the latest packages also be
in trunk?



20/02/2014 10:21, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:

> Hello,
> Please send your mail to the list, if you want everybody to read it...
>
> I don't doubt that you can translate it.
> The concern is that in 2 years, for some future version of enigma, you
> may be gone, and nobody updates the translation anymore.
> It's about the *pool size* of possible translators. You may be very
> dedicated, but who is your backup?
>
> Switching languages on Linux often does not work (see the bug reports
> in Debian, Ubuntu; fixed in the latest package, as well as mails here
> on the list this year).
> The reason is that the locales are usually named "de_DE.UTF-8" on
> Linux, and the UI tries to choose "de_DE", which would be the old,
> non-UTF-8-locale (and may not be available on the system at all).
>
> Regards,
> Erich
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Well, although it does help to have a big translation team, the success of a
>> translation does not depend on the number of its speakers, but on the
>> dedication of its translators. If you dont think I can do it, have a look at
>> my portfolio ;)
>>
>> http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/index.php?sid=&page=148
>>
>> I translated all those games except for Freeciv and Scrabble 3D, and I have
>> a few more projects in the works that are waiting for release.
>>
>> The most important thing is to get the interface done, then I will slowly
>> work my way through the levels. On OpenTTD, they have a minimum of phrases
>> that need to be done before a translation is officially included. Maybe this
>> would be a better criterion than the number of speakers? With Enigma, the
>> difficulty with that is at the moment that the language data are in a source
>> code file rather than a config file, so translators of languages that aren't
>> official included need to be able to compile the project before they can
>
>> test their translation.
>>
>> I have compiled in Ubuntu from trunk, but changing to a different language
>> does not work. The setting changes in the options menu and is remembered,
>> but the interface language stays in English. Is this a new bug you're
>> struggling with?
>>
>>
>> If puzzles contain puns, the best thing to go would be to include a comment
>> in the .pot file for the translators. When translators know, they can get
>> creative. If it doesn't work in their language, they can leave it in
>> English. The existence of one untranslatable level shouldn't keep us from
>> translating all the rest.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 20/02/2014 08:17, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Maybe such languages can be distributed as add-on packages?
>>> Shouldn't be much more than a flag and the translation file; albeit it
>>> might be tricky to get gettext to find the file then.
>>>
>>> Anyway, this would allow translations for smaller languages to be
>>> asynchronously updated (or not updated). The web site could then list
>>> them per version; and it would allow a translator to step up and
>>> contribute a translation later.
>>>
>>> Also note that translations of Enigma sometimes cannot or should not
>>> be made automatically. There are some puzzles based on language;
>>> translating them will make the level unsolvable, unfortunately. See
>>> "the document" in Enigma I for an example. (Spoilers on the problem:
>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=546795 )
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how to best handle such cases. Mark the level
>>> untranslatable explicitly / require the translation to be done
>>> manually inside the level file?
>>> (I havn't checked if this problem has been addressed for this
>>> particular level already.)
>>>
>>> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
>>> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>>>
>>> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
>>> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
>>> translations. This is why I did not want to manually include single
>>> translations in the .desktop file, when the process should be
>>> automated for translator convenience.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Erich
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Lochmann
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> thank you for your support.
>>>> But I have to admit that I'm sceptical.
>>>> Let me explain:
>>>> The language with the least number of native
>>>> speakers we currently support is Belarussian
>>>> with approximately 3,700,000 speakers.
>>>> If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct,
>>>> Scottish Gaelic is natively spoken by 63,000
>>>> people, right?
>>>>
>>>> The problem is not in the number of speakers.
>>>> Actually, the problem is in the number of
>>>> potential translators. In contrast to most
>>>> other projects, Enigma's translations are vast
>>>> and ever-growing, as the number of levels
>>>> steadily grows. There is no end on the effort.
>>>> In languages with many speakers, there are
>>>> many people who can continue with the
>>>> translation in case the original translator
>>>> cannot continue her work. In Scottish Gaelic,
>>>> you and maybe Yannis will be the only ones
>>>> who can do the translation. It will be a task
>>>> for a life-time for you. Are you really willing
>>>> to accept this burden?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Andreas
>>>>
>>>> (I wanted to use a Gaelic "best regards",
>>>> but Google Translator does not support
>>>> it ... what is it in Scottish Gaelic? :-)  )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 17.02.2014 23:33, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent
>>>>> game into Scottish Gaelic :)
>>>>>
>>>>> The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.
>>>>>
>>>>> The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a
>>>>> problem there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots
>>>>> in the future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual
>
>>>>> country). We could use this one though:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> GunChleoc
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Erich Schubert
Hello,
No, the Debian/Ubuntu packages contain distribution specific changes
that aren't committed to trunk.
(And I don't have write access to enigma trunk anyway; I'm happy with
sharing the one patch a year by email.)

In particular the language choosing bug is only a "hotfix", a hack
that needs to be solved more cleanly.
It might break Windows when applied, so it's not ready for trunk.

Regards,
Erich

On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry, something must have been wrong in the settings so this didn't go to
> the list.
>
> First of all, thank you for your fast reply.
>
> I do have a partner in crime who could take over if I get run over by a bus.
> Check his homepage: http://www.igaidhlig.net/
>
> If we should be unable to support the translation anymore, say 20 years in
> the future, you could always remove the translation then. Also, a bomb might
> drop on the key developers and stop all improvements to the code, so let's
> just give up coding anything for this game right now, shall we?
>
> Frankly, this is the first time I have run into this kind of rejection from
> a FOSS project. Or should I use a stronger word, be somewhat dramatic and
> say discrimination?
>
> I apologize for my sarcasm, but I didn't expect to have to tilt at windmills
> for this - minority languages have to tilt at too many of them as it is. I
> also know that you meant no offense, but with issues like this it is hard
> for me to keep my cool. I guess most majority language speakers have no idea
> what it feels like, and why should they ;)
>
>
> As to the problem with switching languages, I built this from trunk today:
>
> svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/enigma-game/source/trunk
>
> Shouldn't the fixes that have been done for the latest packages also be in
> trunk?
>
>
>
> 20/02/2014 10:21, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>
>> Hello,
>> Please send your mail to the list, if you want everybody to read it...
>>
>> I don't doubt that you can translate it.
>> The concern is that in 2 years, for some future version of enigma, you
>> may be gone, and nobody updates the translation anymore.
>> It's about the *pool size* of possible translators. You may be very
>> dedicated, but who is your backup?
>>
>> Switching languages on Linux often does not work (see the bug reports
>> in Debian, Ubuntu; fixed in the latest package, as well as mails here
>> on the list this year).
>> The reason is that the locales are usually named "de_DE.UTF-8" on
>> Linux, and the UI tries to choose "de_DE", which would be the old,
>> non-UTF-8-locale (and may not be available on the system at all).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Erich
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, although it does help to have a big translation team, the success
>>> of a
>>> translation does not depend on the number of its speakers, but on the
>>> dedication of its translators. If you dont think I can do it, have a look
>>> at
>>> my portfolio ;)
>>>
>>> http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/index.php?sid=&page=148
>>>
>>> I translated all those games except for Freeciv and Scrabble 3D, and I
>>> have
>>> a few more projects in the works that are waiting for release.
>>>
>>> The most important thing is to get the interface done, then I will slowly
>>> work my way through the levels. On OpenTTD, they have a minimum of
>>> phrases
>>> that need to be done before a translation is officially included. Maybe
>>> this
>>> would be a better criterion than the number of speakers? With Enigma, the
>>> difficulty with that is at the moment that the language data are in a
>>> source
>>> code file rather than a config file, so translators of languages that
>>> aren't
>>> official included need to be able to compile the project before they can
>>
>>
>>> test their translation.
>>>
>>> I have compiled in Ubuntu from trunk, but changing to a different
>>> language
>>> does not work. The setting changes in the options menu and is remembered,
>>> but the interface language stays in English. Is this a new bug you're
>>> struggling with?
>>>
>>>
>>> If puzzles contain puns, the best thing to go would be to include a
>>> comment
>>> in the .pot file for the translators. When translators know, they can get
>>> creative. If it doesn't work in their language, they can leave it in
>>> English. The existence of one untranslatable level shouldn't keep us from
>>> translating all the rest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 20/02/2014 08:17, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Maybe such languages can be distributed as add-on packages?
>>>> Shouldn't be much more than a flag and the translation file; albeit it
>>>> might be tricky to get gettext to find the file then.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, this would allow translations for smaller languages to be
>>>> asynchronously updated (or not updated). The web site could then list
>>>> them per version; and it would allow a translator to step up and
>>>> contribute a translation later.
>>>>
>>>> Also note that translations of Enigma sometimes cannot or should not
>>>> be made automatically. There are some puzzles based on language;
>>>> translating them will make the level unsolvable, unfortunately. See
>>>> "the document" in Enigma I for an example. (Spoilers on the problem:
>>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=546795 )
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how to best handle such cases. Mark the level
>>>> untranslatable explicitly / require the translation to be done
>>>> manually inside the level file?
>>>> (I havn't checked if this problem has been addressed for this
>>>> particular level already.)
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
>>>> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
>>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>>>>
>>>> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
>>>> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
>>>> translations. This is why I did not want to manually include single
>>>> translations in the .desktop file, when the process should be
>>>> automated for translator convenience.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Erich
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Lochmann
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> thank you for your support.
>>>>> But I have to admit that I'm sceptical.
>>>>> Let me explain:
>>>>> The language with the least number of native
>>>>> speakers we currently support is Belarussian
>>>>> with approximately 3,700,000 speakers.
>>>>> If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct,
>>>>> Scottish Gaelic is natively spoken by 63,000
>>>>> people, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is not in the number of speakers.
>>>>> Actually, the problem is in the number of
>>>>> potential translators. In contrast to most
>>>>> other projects, Enigma's translations are vast
>>>>> and ever-growing, as the number of levels
>>>>> steadily grows. There is no end on the effort.
>>>>> In languages with many speakers, there are
>>>>> many people who can continue with the
>>>>> translation in case the original translator
>>>>> cannot continue her work. In Scottish Gaelic,
>>>>> you and maybe Yannis will be the only ones
>>>>> who can do the translation. It will be a task
>>>>> for a life-time for you. Are you really willing
>>>>> to accept this burden?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>
>>>>> (I wanted to use a Gaelic "best regards",
>>>>> but Google Translator does not support
>>>>> it ... what is it in Scottish Gaelic? :-)  )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 17.02.2014 23:33, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent
>>>>>> game into Scottish Gaelic :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a
>>>>>> problem there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots
>>>>>> in the future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual
>>
>>
>>>>>> country). We could use this one though:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GunChleoc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Enigma-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel



--

best regards,
Erich Schubert

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Fòram na Gàidhlig
Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation :)


20/02/2014 13:39, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:

> Hello,
> No, the Debian/Ubuntu packages contain distribution specific changes
> that aren't committed to trunk.
> (And I don't have write access to enigma trunk anyway; I'm happy with
> sharing the one patch a year by email.)
>
> In particular the language choosing bug is only a "hotfix", a hack
> that needs to be solved more cleanly.
> It might break Windows when applied, so it's not ready for trunk.
>
> Regards,
> Erich
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Sorry, something must have been wrong in the settings so this didn't go to
>> the list.
>>
>> First of all, thank you for your fast reply.
>>
>> I do have a partner in crime who could take over if I get run over by a bus.
>> Check his homepage: http://www.igaidhlig.net/
>>
>> If we should be unable to support the translation anymore, say 20 years in
>> the future, you could always remove the translation then. Also, a bomb might
>> drop on the key developers and stop all improvements to the code, so let's
>> just give up coding anything for this game right now, shall we?
>>
>> Frankly, this is the first time I have run into this kind of rejection from
>> a FOSS project. Or should I use a stronger word, be somewhat dramatic and
>> say discrimination?
>>
>> I apologize for my sarcasm, but I didn't expect to have to tilt at windmills
>> for this - minority languages have to tilt at too many of them as it is. I
>> also know that you meant no offense, but with issues like this it is hard
>> for me to keep my cool. I guess most majority language speakers have no idea
>> what it feels like, and why should they ;)
>>
>>
>> As to the problem with switching languages, I built this from trunk today:
>>
>> svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/enigma-game/source/trunk
>>
>> Shouldn't the fixes that have been done for the latest packages also be in
>> trunk?
>>
>>
>>
>> 20/02/2014 10:21, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Please send your mail to the list, if you want everybody to read it...
>>>
>>> I don't doubt that you can translate it.
>>> The concern is that in 2 years, for some future version of enigma, you
>>> may be gone, and nobody updates the translation anymore.
>>> It's about the *pool size* of possible translators. You may be very
>>> dedicated, but who is your backup?
>>>
>>> Switching languages on Linux often does not work (see the bug reports
>>> in Debian, Ubuntu; fixed in the latest package, as well as mails here
>>> on the list this year).
>>> The reason is that the locales are usually named "de_DE.UTF-8" on
>>> Linux, and the UI tries to choose "de_DE", which would be the old,
>>> non-UTF-8-locale (and may not be available on the system at all).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Erich
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, although it does help to have a big translation team, the success
>>>> of a
>>>> translation does not depend on the number of its speakers, but on the
>>>> dedication of its translators. If you dont think I can do it, have a look
>>>> at
>>>> my portfolio ;)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/index.php?sid=&page=148
>>>>
>>>> I translated all those games except for Freeciv and Scrabble 3D, and I
>
>>>> have
>>>> a few more projects in the works that are waiting for release.
>>>>
>>>> The most important thing is to get the interface done, then I will slowly
>>>> work my way through the levels. On OpenTTD, they have a minimum of
>>>> phrases
>>>> that need to be done before a translation is officially included. Maybe
>>>> this
>>>> would be a better criterion than the number of speakers? With Enigma, the
>>>> difficulty with that is at the moment that the language data are in a
>>>> source
>>>> code file rather than a config file, so translators of languages that
>>>> aren't
>>>> official included need to be able to compile the project before they can
>>>
>>>
>>>> test their translation.
>>>>
>>>> I have compiled in Ubuntu from trunk, but changing to a different
>>>> language
>>>> does not work. The setting changes in the options menu and is remembered,
>>>> but the interface language stays in English. Is this a new bug you're
>>>> struggling with?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If puzzles contain puns, the best thing to go would be to include a
>>>> comment
>>>> in the .pot file for the translators. When translators know, they can get
>>>> creative. If it doesn't work in their language, they can leave it in
>>>> English. The existence of one untranslatable level shouldn't keep us from
>>>> translating all the rest.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 20/02/2014 08:17, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Maybe such languages can be distributed as add-on packages?
>>>>> Shouldn't be much more than a flag and the translation file; albeit it
>>>>> might be tricky to get gettext to find the file then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, this would allow translations for smaller languages to be
>>>>> asynchronously updated (or not updated). The web site could then list
>
>>>>> them per version; and it would allow a translator to step up and
>>>>> contribute a translation later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that translations of Enigma sometimes cannot or should not
>>>>> be made automatically. There are some puzzles based on language;
>>>>> translating them will make the level unsolvable, unfortunately. See
>>>>> "the document" in Enigma I for an example. (Spoilers on the problem:
>>>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=546795 )
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how to best handle such cases. Mark the level
>>>>> untranslatable explicitly / require the translation to be done
>>>>> manually inside the level file?
>>>>> (I havn't checked if this problem has been addressed for this
>>>>> particular level already.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
>>>>> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
>>>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>>>>>
>>>>> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
>>>>> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
>>>>> translations. This is why I did not want to manually include single
>>>>> translations in the .desktop file, when the process should be
>>>>> automated for translator convenience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Erich
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Lochmann
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thank you for your support.
>>>>>> But I have to admit that I'm sceptical.
>>>>>> Let me explain:
>>>>>> The language with the least number of native
>>>>>> speakers we currently support is Belarussian
>>>>>> with approximately 3,700,000 speakers.
>>>>>> If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct,
>>>>>> Scottish Gaelic is natively spoken by 63,000
>>>>>> people, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is not in the number of speakers.
>>>>>> Actually, the problem is in the number of
>>>>>> potential translators. In contrast to most
>>>>>> other projects, Enigma's translations are vast
>>>>>> and ever-growing, as the number of levels
>>>>>> steadily grows. There is no end on the effort.
>>>>>> In languages with many speakers, there are
>>>>>> many people who can continue with the
>>>>>> translation in case the original translator
>>>>>> cannot continue her work. In Scottish Gaelic,
>>>>>> you and maybe Yannis will be the only ones
>>>>>> who can do the translation. It will be a task
>>>>>> for a life-time for you. Are you really willing
>>>>>> to accept this burden?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I wanted to use a Gaelic "best regards",
>>>>>> but Google Translator does not support
>>>>>> it ... what is it in Scottish Gaelic? :-)  )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 17.02.2014 23:33, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to start working my way through translating this excellent
>
>>>>>>> game into Scottish Gaelic :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The locale is gd or gd_GB, encoding UTF-8.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have already sent a request to be added to the Transifex project.
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The flag would usually be the Scottish flag, but we will have a
>>>>>>> problem there if somebody should want to translate the game into Scots
>>>>>>> in the future, because it's the same flag (Scotland is a multilingual
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> country). We could use this one though:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://labspace.open.ac.uk/file.php/7437/!via/oucontent/course/3639/gaelic_1_flag.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which is the symbol of the Gaelic community in Nova Scotia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GunChleoc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Enigma-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel
>
>
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Raoul-3
In reply to this post by Erich Schubert
Hi,


> Also note that translations of Enigma sometimes cannot or should not
> be made automatically. There are some puzzles based on language;
> translating them will make the level unsolvable, unfortunately. See
> "the document" in Enigma I for an example.

There is an xml attribute called "el:translate" in the
level code that can be set to false. I think this even
excludes the string from appearing in the pot file.

> I'm not sure how to best handle such cases. Mark the level
> untranslatable explicitly / require the translation to be done
> manually inside the level file?

Both are possible except the "require" part.


> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>
> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
> translations.

Hmm, ok. And which are the tools you would use for this task?


-- Raoul

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Erich Schubert
In reply to this post by Erich Schubert
Hello Raoul,
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/intltool/

intltool is the standard tool for combining gettext with various
non-source formats, such as XML files.

Regards,
Erich

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Fòram na Gàidhlig
Intltool is great, but IMO it would take time to change everything over
at this stage. Most of it would be simple leg work, but time consuming.
All the xml files would have to be edited, adding underscores to the
tags for all translatable strings.

You already have a script that seems to be working nicely. Is it worth
the effort of switching tools just for 1 line of text in 1 desktop file?

The Debian patch adds a line in the style of:

Comment[de]=Decke Steinpaare mit einer Kugel in einer Welt voller
Hindernisse auf

If that works, just point translators to this and have one of the devs
update the file.



21/02/2014 00:50, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:

> Hello Raoul,
> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/intltool/
>
> intltool is the standard tool for combining gettext with various
> non-source formats, such as XML files.
>
> Regards,
> Erich
>
>> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
>> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>>
>> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
>> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
>> translations.

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Erich Schubert
Hi,
I don't think you need to "switch" to intltool. They should just work together.
As far as I can tell, intltool is designed as an add-on (!) to
gettext, that extracts "other" strings to translate from e.g. desktop
files; adds them to the existing .po file, and also helps updating the
template files (.desktop.in) with the translations into the output
file (.desktop) at compile time...

Using this for the .desktop file makes sense, because A) this is the
recommended and common way to handle translations of .desktop files,
and B) the translation can then be done within the existing
translation system, as opposed to having translators submit a separate
patch for the desktop file.

I'm not suggesting to use intltool for the level files.

Regards,
Erich

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Fòram na Gàidhlig
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Intltool is great, but IMO it would take time to change everything over at
> this stage. Most of it would be simple leg work, but time consuming. All the
> xml files would have to be edited, adding underscores to the tags for all
> translatable strings.
>
> You already have a script that seems to be working nicely. Is it worth the
> effort of switching tools just for 1 line of text in 1 desktop file?
>
> The Debian patch adds a line in the style of:
>
> Comment[de]=Decke Steinpaare mit einer Kugel in einer Welt voller
> Hindernisse auf
>
> If that works, just point translators to this and have one of the devs
> update the file.
>
>
>
> 21/02/2014 00:50, sgrìobh Erich Schubert:
>>
>> Hello Raoul,
>> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/intltool/
>>
>> intltool is the standard tool for combining gettext with various
>> non-source formats, such as XML files.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Erich
>>
>>> Speaking of translations; the enigma.desktop file (Freedesktop menu
>>> entry for Linux systems) should also be translated:
>>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=667656
>>>
>>> There are tools that will include the .desktop strings in the
>>> translation data and update the .desktop at compile time with the
>>> translations.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Enigma-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/enigma-devel



--

best regards,
Erich Schubert

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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Andreas Lochmann-2
In reply to this post by Fòram na Gàidhlig

Dear GunChleoc,

we (the inner circle of developers) spoke about
whether we could and would want to support
a Scottish Gaelic translation. But before I get
to the good news, there is one thing left ...

Am 20.02.2014 12:59, schrieb Fòram na Gàidhlig:
> Frankly, this is the first time I have run into this kind of rejection
> from a FOSS project. Or should I use a stronger word, be somewhat
> dramatic and say discrimination?
>

Packing out the big words now, are we?

I thought I'd be old enough to not become
unsettled upon such rant. Well, I'm not.
And from time to time, I like to be dramatic,
too.

> I apologize for my sarcasm, but I didn't expect to have to tilt at
> windmills for this - minority languages have to tilt at too many of
> them as it is. I also know that you meant no offense, but with issues
> like this it is hard for me to keep my cool. I guess most majority
> language speakers have no idea what it feels like, and why should they ;)
>

You said it, send it, meant it.
Let me answer.

You might not remember, but there was a
time when Scottish-Gaelic was actually the
majority language of your country. You surely
know about the High- and Lowland's past,
but for the other listeners here let me recall
that, about fifteen hundred years ago, yet
another language dominated old Caledonia
... the middle and Eastern part, to be more
precise ... Pictish.

The Pictish tribes and their culture survived
the rise and fall of the Romans and the
assaults of the Vikings, only to be slowly
absorbed by some West-coast invaders,
the Gaels. The Gaels hailed from an isle the
Romans once called Scotia, and what we
nowadays call Éire, or Ireland. Just five
hundred years later, the Pictish language
and culture was forgotten. Pushed into
oblivion. Forever, with the exemption of
some fairy tales and myths.
And the Gaels from Scotia ruled.

It would be totally wrong to say that the
Picts were in any way innocent. Without
having proofs at hand, I'm deeply convinced
that in some part of their history, they or
their ancestors were the onces to displace
or absorb some other culture, may it be
on the British Isles or elsewhere in Europe,
wherever their origin might have been.
Our memory does not go back that far.
Which is a pity. And maybe a blessing.

Today, Scottish-Gaelic is the minority,
and at the edge of extinction. Take a look
at the numbers ... 60.000 ... not more
than inhabitants of Inbhir Nis. Maybe this
is the cycle of life for languages? Having
to struggle and grow, dominate, absorb
others; then to stagger, to freeze and
to go into decline, leaving only some
marks in aspiring new languages, before
dying and being forgot. Even the mighty
Latin was not immune to this fate. Maybe
things are more complicated than this.
Maybe things someday just have to die.

But it's not ours to decide when Scottish-
Gaelic's time has passed.

It's yours to decide.

And as long as an aspiring young man or
determined woman wants to keep this
language alive, it will live.

We are only too happy to give you some
shelter for this. Enigma's base, our home,
is small, but there should be some place
for you. And not in some expansion pack,
but in the very core aside the others.

Just do me a favor.

Languages don't live by being conserved.
A language has to grow, and to develop.
To absorb other influences and create new
expressions by itself. By rediscovering its
past and redefining its future. With the
small number of speakers Scottish-Gaelic
calls its own, your impact on Scottish-Gaelic
is the impact a thousand me's could ever
have on German. So please be considerate
about how you translate. It might become
a puzzle piece in your language's future.

Viel Erfolg dabei,
Andreas



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Re: Scottish Gaelic translation

Fòram na Gàidhlig
> Packing out the big words now, are we?
>
> I thought I'd be old enough to not become
> unsettled upon such rant. Well, I'm not.
> And from time to time, I like to be dramatic,
> too.

I felt I was being hit by a massive wall of rejection, because there
were two pretty long e-mails on this list explaining why my translation
shouldn't be accepted. So I got quite emotional, but replied in a matter
of fact way. Then I got another e-mail back explaining why my
translation wouldn't be accepted, so that was a bit much for me. I am
sorry if I went over the top with this.



> You might not remember, but there was a
> time when Scottish-Gaelic was actually the
> majority language of your country. You surely
> know about the High- and Lowland's past,
> but for the other listeners here let me recall
> that, about fifteen hundred years ago, yet
> another language dominated old Caledonia
> ... the middle and Eastern part, to be more
> precise ... Pictish.
>
> The Pictish tribes and their culture survived
> the rise and fall of the Romans and the
> assaults of the Vikings, only to be slowly
> absorbed by some West-coast invaders,
> the Gaels. The Gaels hailed from an isle the
> Romans once called Scotia, and what we
> nowadays call Éire, or Ireland. Just five
> hundred years later, the Pictish language
> and culture was forgotten. Pushed into
> oblivion. Forever, with the exemption of
> some fairy tales and myths.
> And the Gaels from Scotia ruled.

Newer evidence suggest ther might actually have been a common Gaelic
area between the west of Scotland and Ireland, because people travelled
by boats a lot. You can see Ireland from Scotland, it's pretty close.
Anyway, all ancient history now :)


> It would be totally wrong to say that the
> Picts were in any way innocent. Without
> having proofs at hand, I'm deeply convinced
> that in some part of their history, they or
> their ancestors were the onces to displace
> or absorb some other culture, may it be
> on the British Isles or elsewhere in Europe,
> wherever their origin might have been.
> Our memory does not go back that far.
> Which is a pity. And maybe a blessing.

This kind of thing has happened everywhere across the world and nobody
is innocent. After being driven fro their land, a lot of Gaels became
part of the British military machine and suppressed Native Americans in
turn.



> Today, Scottish-Gaelic is the minority,
> and at the edge of extinction. Take a look
> at the numbers ... 60.000 ... not more
> than inhabitants of Inbhir Nis. Maybe this
> is the cycle of life for languages? Having
> to struggle and grow, dominate, absorb
> others; then to stagger, to freeze and
> to go into decline, leaving only some
> marks in aspiring new languages, before
> dying and being forgot. Even the mighty
> Latin was not immune to this fate. Maybe
> things are more complicated than this.
> Maybe things someday just have to die.

Well, Latin did not die, it evolved into the Romance languages. Just
Like English has chaged a lot after the Norman invasion and is now
splitting into a multitude of dialects and derived languages across the
world.



> But it's not ours to decide when Scottish-
> Gaelic's time has passed.
>
> It's yours to decide.
>
> And as long as an aspiring young man or
> determined woman wants to keep this
> language alive, it will live.
>
> We are only too happy to give you some
> shelter for this. Enigma's base, our home,
> is small, but there should be some place
> for you. And not in some expansion pack,
> but in the very core aside the others.

Thank you very much for your encouragement.


> Just do me a favor.
>
> Languages don't live by being conserved.
> A language has to grow, and to develop.
> To absorb other influences and create new
> expressions by itself. By rediscovering its
> past and redefining its future. With the
> small number of speakers Scottish-Gaelic
> calls its own, your impact on Scottish-Gaelic
> is the impact a thousand me's could ever
> have on German. So please be considerate
> about how you translate. It might become
> a puzzle piece in your language's future.

Exactly my thoughts. We need software in our language if it is to
survive. We also need a lot of other things, but software and computer
games is a part for this, and translations need to be of hight quality.


> Viel Erfolg dabei,

Danke! Bin schon bei 35%. :)

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