Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

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Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

fluid-dev mailing list
Thanks for the update and corrections to my thoughts and ideas. It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

At the moment I just want something that works so that I can experiment with it. My code does not produce ANY modulation at present and you say the modulator may be disabled in the sound font. I have examined several of my sound fonts using viena and cannot see any way to positively DISABLE any modulators. (I am not a sound font expert, normally just a sound font user - but ready to learn).

However the modulators can be altered and in some cases the default frequency has been altered for particular instruments.

I am attaching one of the sound fonts in which fluidsynth and my code fails to activate any modulation or vibrato. All of the sound fonts I regularly use accompany eplayOrgan when it is downloaded and installed.

Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.

I have googled "fliudsynth christian" and surprisingly there were some results connecting the two but nothing obviously of any value to my problem/s. So - how do I get Christians advice on tremolo?

David (csw900)

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Re: Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

Ceresa Jean-Jacques

Hello David,

>It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

Yes fluidsynth and any SF2 compliant synthesizers sould always instructed by soundfonts articulations parameters. They are

only reproducer sound engine. In other words the synthesizer should never take any decision.

 

>Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.
modulators effects are always "additive". That means that if we have CC1-to-xxx-volume, and CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator modulators. Both modulators will be played.
In this case the same CC1 will modulate the oscillator frequency and the volume (through the respective lfo).
 
Assuming you want to disable the default CC1-to-xxx-frequency modulator. The only way to do that is to add a new CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator:
In order to be able to override this default modulator, 3 conditions must be observed with attention:
(1)this second modulator MUST be added at INSTRUMENT level (i.e in instrument zone) (please do not be confused with preset level).
(2)this new modulator must be IDENTICAL to the one intended to be disabled.
In SF terminologie two modulators (m1,m2) are considered identical when that have 'same sources(src,src amount)' and 'same destination' (regardless of amount value).
(3)new modulator's amount value MUST be 0.
If one of the above condition is not true, this new modulator will never override (i.e disable) the default CC1 modulator.
Wecome to the world of SF2.
jjc.
 
> Message du 04/07/20 16:34

> De : "David Back via fluid-dev" <[hidden email]>
> A : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Copie à : "David Back" <[hidden email]>, "Tom M." <[hidden email]>
> Objet : [fluid-dev] Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1
>
>
Thanks for the update and corrections to my thoughts and ideas. It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

>
At the moment I just want something that works so that I can experiment with it. My code does not produce ANY modulation at present and you say the modulator may be disabled in the sound font. I have examined several of my sound fonts using viena and cannot see any way to positively DISABLE any modulators. (I am not a sound font expert, normally just a sound font user - but ready to learn).

>
However the modulators can be altered and in some cases the default frequency has been altered for particular instruments.

>
I am attaching one of the sound fonts in which fluidsynth and my code fails to activate any modulation or vibrato. All of the sound fonts I regularly use accompany eplayOrgan when it is downloaded and installed.

>
Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.

>
I have googled "fliudsynth christian" and surprisingly there were some results connecting the two but nothing obviously of any value to my problem/s. So - how do I get Christians advice on tremolo?

>
David (csw900)


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-dev

>
> [ 201606esteyDB-0.sf2 (3987.9 Ko) ]

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Re: Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

fluid-dev mailing list
I've looked into it. The good news is that your "Harp LP" instrument is the only one that disables the vibrato modulator on CC1. Your organ instruments have proper vibrato. You can easily check this by executing

fluidsynth.exe 201606esteyDB-0.sf2

and then typing in the shell:

prog 0 13
noteon 0 60 127
cc 0 1 127
noteoff 0 60

You will clearly hear the vibrato once you issue the cc1=127.

So the only idea left is that your MIDI channel where you start the notes is not the same as the one where you've issued CC1.

Christian is the other guy who has replied to your mail via the list: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/fluid-dev/2020-07/msg00002.html


Tom



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Re: Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

fluid-dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Ceresa Jean-Jacques
It seems it is so difficult to disable the modulators that I am pretty confident they are not disabled on any of my sound fonts. These modulators appear to me to be available AND turned on by default in all normal sf2 fonts.

I am even more confused now - I have just tried a different sound font with eplayOrgan - one which works with jOrgan and does produce (very weak but clear) tremolo when used with jOrgan.

This soundfont shows no sign of any tremolo when used in eplayOrgan so I am even more convinced now that there is something wrong with my code in eplayOrgan. I suspect I need to enable or initialise something which I have not enabled or initialised such as the midi input (eplayOrgan sends all its midi direct to the synth and never uses any FS midi inputs).

Is there any example of working c or c++ code for using CC1 ? I have not been able to find any myself.

Thank you

David(csw900)

On Saturday, 4 July 2020, 17:49:17 BST, Ceresa Jean-Jacques <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hello David,

>It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

Yes fluidsynth and any SF2 compliant synthesizers sould always instructed by soundfonts articulations parameters. They are

only reproducer sound engine. In other words the synthesizer should never take any decision.

 

>Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.
modulators effects are always "additive". That means that if we have CC1-to-xxx-volume, and CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator modulators. Both modulators will be played.
In this case the same CC1 will modulate the oscillator frequency and the volume (through the respective lfo).
 
Assuming you want to disable the default CC1-to-xxx-frequency modulator. The only way to do that is to add a new CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator:
In order to be able to override this default modulator, 3 conditions must be observed with attention:
(1)this second modulator MUST be added at INSTRUMENT level (i.e in instrument zone) (please do not be confused with preset level).
(2)this new modulator must be IDENTICAL to the one intended to be disabled.
In SF terminologie two modulators (m1,m2) are considered identical when that have 'same sources(src,src amount)' and 'same destination' (regardless of amount value).
(3)new modulator's amount value MUST be 0.
If one of the above condition is not true, this new modulator will never override (i.e disable) the default CC1 modulator.
Wecome to the world of SF2.
jjc.
 
> Message du 04/07/20 16:34

> De : "David Back via fluid-dev" <[hidden email]>
> A : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Copie à : "David Back" <[hidden email]>, "Tom M." <[hidden email]>
> Objet : [fluid-dev] Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

>
>
Thanks for the update and corrections to my thoughts and ideas. It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

>
At the moment I just want something that works so that I can experiment with it. My code does not produce ANY modulation at present and you say the modulator may be disabled in the sound font. I have examined several of my sound fonts using viena and cannot see any way to positively DISABLE any modulators. (I am not a sound font expert, normally just a sound font user - but ready to learn).

>
However the modulators can be altered and in some cases the default frequency has been altered for particular instruments.

>
I am attaching one of the sound fonts in which fluidsynth and my code fails to activate any modulation or vibrato. All of the sound fonts I regularly use accompany eplayOrgan when it is downloaded and installed.

>
Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.

>
I have googled "fliudsynth christian" and surprisingly there were some results connecting the two but nothing obviously of any value to my problem/s. So - how do I get Christians advice on tremolo?

>
David (csw900)


_______________________________________________
fluid-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-dev

>
> [ 201606esteyDB-0.sf2 (3987.9 Ko) ]

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Re: Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

Ceresa Jean-Jacques

Hi,

 

>It seems it is so difficult to disable the modulators that I am pretty confident they are not disabled on any of my sound fonts. These modulators appear to me to be available AND turned on by default in all normal sf2 fonts.

 

Just a precision. We should have a clear description of what are 'default modulators'. These default modulators are in the synthesizer (not in the soundfont). On noteon, Il they are no overriding modulators in the soundfont, the default modulators will be played. So you are right, these default modulators are always ON by nature. The list of default modulator is specified in the SF2 specs (sfspec24.pdf chapter 8.4). In this list, only the CC1-to-Vibrato-LFO-Pitch_Depth modulator (chapter 8.4.4) need to be disabled for your need.

 

What you need to do in the soundfont: In the Instrument Zone(s) of the preset Px you want to use.

1.1) Disable the default CC1-to-Vibrato-LFO-Pitch_Depth modulator. By adding an identical CC1-to-Vibrato-LFO-Pitch_Depth modulator with amount set to 0.

1.2) Add a new modulator to produce tremolo effect (i.e amplitude modulation):

    - destination generator: modLfoToVolume (generator 13).

    - CC1 connected to source

    - no amount source

    - amount value set to a value > 0.

Then using your MIDI keyboard playing on MIDI channel chx :

2.1)Send to MIDI channel chx a program and bank change event corresponding to the preset Px.

2.2)Play note on channel chx.

2.3)Send CC1 value > 0 on channel chx to add tremolo.

All theses steps are easily reproducible using just a soundfont editor and using the fluidsynth application console

Regards.

jjc

 

 

> Message du 04/07/20 19:37

> De : "David Back" <[hidden email]>
> A : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Copie à : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, "Tom M." <[hidden email]>
> Objet : Re: [fluid-dev] Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1
>
>
 
It seems it is so difficult to disable the modulators that I am pretty confident they are not disabled on any of my sound fonts. These modulators appear to me to be available AND turned on by default in all normal sf2 fonts.

>
I am even more confused now - I have just tried a different sound font with eplayOrgan - one which works with jOrgan and does produce (very weak but clear) tremolo when used with jOrgan.

>
This soundfont shows no sign of any tremolo when used in eplayOrgan so I am even more convinced now that there is something wrong with my code in eplayOrgan. I suspect I need to enable or initialise something which I have not enabled or initialised such as the midi input (eplayOrgan sends all its midi direct to the synth and never uses any FS midi inputs).

>
Is there any example of working c or c++ code for using CC1 ? I have not been able to find any myself.

>
Thank you

>
David(csw900)

>
On Saturday, 4 July 2020, 17:49:17 BST, Ceresa Jean-Jacques <[hidden email]> wrote:

>

>

> Hello David,

> >It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

> Yes fluidsynth and any SF2 compliant synthesizers sould always instructed by soundfonts articulations parameters. They are

> only reproducer sound engine. In other words the synthesizer should never take any decision.

>  

>Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.
modulators effects are always "additive". That means that if we have CC1-to-xxx-volume, and CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator modulators. Both modulators will be played.
In this case the same CC1 will modulate the oscillator frequency and the volume (through the respective lfo).
 
Assuming you want to disable the default CC1-to-xxx-frequency modulator. The only way to do that is to add a new CC1-to-xxx-frequency-oscillator:
In order to be able to override this default modulator, 3 conditions must be observed with attention:
(1)this second modulator MUST be added at INSTRUMENT level (i.e in instrument zone) (please do not be confused with preset level).
(2)this new modulator must be IDENTICAL to the one intended to be disabled.
In SF terminologie two modulators (m1,m2) are considered identical when that have 'same sources(src,src amount)' and 'same destination' (regardless of amount value).
(3)new modulator's amount value MUST be 0.
If one of the above condition is not true, this new modulator will never override (i.e disable) the default CC1 modulator.
Wecome to the world of SF2.
jjc.
 
> Message du 04/07/20 16:34

> De : "David Back via fluid-dev" <[hidden email]>
> A : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Copie à : "David Back" <[hidden email]>, "Tom M." <[hidden email]>
> Objet : [fluid-dev] Tremolo, fluidsynth and CC 1

>
>
Thanks for the update and corrections to my thoughts and ideas. It is particularly useful to know that I can change what FS does by changing parameters in the sound fonts.

>
At the moment I just want something that works so that I can experiment with it. My code does not produce ANY modulation at present and you say the modulator may be disabled in the sound font. I have examined several of my sound fonts using viena and cannot see any way to positively DISABLE any modulators. (I am not a sound font expert, normally just a sound font user - but ready to learn).

>
However the modulators can be altered and in some cases the default frequency has been altered for particular instruments.

>
I am attaching one of the sound fonts in which fluidsynth and my code fails to activate any modulation or vibrato. All of the sound fonts I regularly use accompany eplayOrgan when it is downloaded and installed.

>
Any advice on enabling/disabling modulators will be gratefully received.

>
I have googled "fliudsynth christian" and surprisingly there were some results connecting the two but nothing obviously of any value to my problem/s. So - how do I get Christians advice on tremolo?

>
David (csw900)


_______________________________________________
fluid-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-dev

>
> [ 201606esteyDB-0.sf2 (3987.9 Ko) ]

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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