[monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

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[monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Hi all,

The Monit source code is now up on https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit and managed by Git. You are welcome to contribute to this project by forking and open pull requests. Good pull requests, patches, improvements and new features are immensely helpful and appreciated, but please ask first if a new feature is wanted before working on a patch, otherwise you risk spending a lot of time working on something that the project's developers might not want to merge into the project. Important: Most open source project require you to sign a Contributor License Agreement, we believe this can be simplified by stating that if you submit a patch or a pull request, you agree to allow the project owners to license your work under the terms of the CC0 license. I won’t enumerate the reasons why this is necessary here, but in case you wonder why this matter, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement and http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html

We also have a new issue tracker for Monit at https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit/issues Please use this tracker to register new issues, but also feature requests if you want. We have already registered two new issue which we are currently working on, which are "Add argument support to 'check program’” and "Add Restart command to Monit”.


Best regards, from the Monit team


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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Michael Shigorin
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 01:44:49PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> The Monit source code is now up on
> https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit and managed by Git.

Congratulations and (ongoing) good luck!

> Important: Most open source project require you to sign a
> Contributor License Agreement [...] I won't enumerate the
> reasons why this is necessary here, but in case you wonder why
> this matter, please see

Recent news:
http://www.muktware.com/2014/01/linus-torvalds-cla-fundamentally-broken/19811

--
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin / http://altlinux.org
  ------ http://opennet.ru / http://anna-news.info

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
In reply to this post by Jan-Henrik Haukeland
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 01:44:49PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> The Monit source code is now up on
> https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit and managed by Git.

Good news.

And bad news:
> Important: Most open source project require you to sign a CLA

I don't feel that's true.  (Is there some statistics?)

> you agree to allow the project owners to license your work under the
> terms of the CC0 license. I won’t enumerate the reasons why this is
> necessary here

Could you consider to use a more GPL-like license here?

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland

On 06 Feb 2014, at 18:06, Sergey B Kirpichev <[hidden email]> wrote:

> you agree to allow the project owners to license your work under the
>> terms of the CC0 license. I won’t enumerate the reasons why this is
>> necessary here
>
> Could you consider to use a more GPL-like license here?

We prefer not too as the bureaucracy would be hopeless in the future if we should want to switch license. We would like to avoid situations like this, https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/2054 and this, http://www.tuaw.com/2011/01/08/vlc-app-removed-from-app-store/



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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 08:51:26PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> We prefer not too as the bureaucracy would be hopeless in the future
> if we should want to switch license.

GPL doesn't prevent you from license switch (to something
compatible).  But in this way your contributors can be
sure that this project will stay open.

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland
On 06 Feb 2014, at 21:21, Sergey B Kirpichev <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 06, 2014 at 08:51:26PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
>> We prefer not too as the bureaucracy would be hopeless in the future
>> if we should want to switch license.
>
> GPL doesn't prevent you from license switch (to something
> compatible).  

The problem is more of a practical nature. To switch license we will have track down and ask one and every contributor if it is okay to do so. This is basically impossible over years and you end up with a situation like Drupal cannot include Bootstrap. This can be avoided if contributors allow their work to be included under a CC0 license.

> But in this way your contributors can be sure that this project will stay open.

If we allow someone to contribute under a GPL license it can prevent us from doing what MySQL did. That is, dual license Monit with a commercial license as well as a GPL license. We want to improve Monit considerably and have some pretty cool plans, but it will require lots of work. I’m not saying we will, but dual license Monit is one option to fund this work together with the modest income from M/Monit.

Or put another way, are you are willing to work on Monit 8 hours a day for 6 months for free. Because this is the amount of work required to bring Monit up to the level we want it to be.



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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
On Fri, Feb 07, 2014 at 12:00:33AM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> >> We prefer not too as the bureaucracy would be hopeless in the future
> >> if we should want to switch license.
> >
> > GPL doesn't prevent you from license switch (to something
> > compatible).  
>
> The problem is more of a practical nature.  To switch license we will
> have track down and ask one and every contributor...

I'm not against CLA, but only against the CC0.

> Or put another way, are you are willing to work on Monit 8 hours a day for 6 months for free.

Not for CC0.  You just lost one contributor.

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland

On 07 Feb 2014, at 00:25, Sergey B Kirpichev <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Or put another way, are you are willing to work on Monit 8 hours a day for 6 months for free.
>
> Not for CC0.  You just lost one contributor.

I’m sorry to hear that, but I understand. The CC0 license can easily be switched with something else, I just thought it was convenient since it _basically_ does the same as a CLA. If you have a link to a CLA that you find acceptable please let me know.






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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
On Fri, Feb 07, 2014 at 01:03:15AM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> The CC0 license can easily be switched with something else, I just
> thought it was convenient since it _basically_ does the same as a CLA.

There exist *very* different CLA's.

> If you have a link to a CLA that you find acceptable please let me know.

This, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement#KDE

Alternatively, if you want the monit to be an open source
software, but not free software - you can change the license
to something BSD-like (and use CC0 as CLA).

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Thanks, this discussion has been useful. We change to a CLA which does not sign over copyright and promise to keep contribution under the GPL license (also). See http://tildeslash.com/cla-tildeslash.pdf

But enough bikeshedding, instead of having long discussion about this, I’ll prefer to write code instead.


On 07 Feb 2014, at 13:43, Sergey B Kirpichev <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 07, 2014 at 01:03:15AM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
>> The CC0 license can easily be switched with something else, I just
>> thought it was convenient since it _basically_ does the same as a CLA.
>
> There exist *very* different CLA's.
>
>> If you have a link to a CLA that you find acceptable please let me know.
>
> This, for example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement#KDE
>
> Alternatively, if you want the monit to be an open source
> software, but not free software - you can change the license
> to something BSD-like (and use CC0 as CLA).



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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
On Sat, Feb 08, 2014 at 02:52:53PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> Thanks, this discussion has been useful. We change to a CLA which
> does not sign over copyright and promise to keep contribution under
> the GPL license (also). See http://tildeslash.com/cla-tildeslash.pdf

I'm fail to see the difference.  The only one: you add additional
bureaucracy (even for trivial contribution).  This file doesn't have
any promises like FLA.  Compare, for example the following quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement#KDE
vs yours section 2.

> But enough bikeshedding

Well, sorry about boring you.

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Igor Homyakov-2
In reply to this post by Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Hi,

I'm afraid I've missed something. As far as I can see you've  removed
all authors credits as well as the file AUTHORS specifically. Was it
in order of new license/agreement  clearance ?

-- Best, Igor


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Jan-Henrik Haukeland
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The Monit source code is now up on https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit and managed by Git. You are welcome to contribute to this project by forking and open pull requests. Good pull requests, patches, improvements and new features are immensely helpful and appreciated, but please ask first if a new feature is wanted before working on a patch, otherwise you risk spending a lot of time working on something that the project's developers might not want to merge into the project. Important: Most open source project require you to sign a Contributor License Agreement, we believe this can be simplified by stating that if you submit a patch or a pull request, you agree to allow the project owners to license your work under the terms of the CC0 license. I won’t enumerate the reasons why this is necessary here, but in case you wonder why this matter, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement and http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html
>
> We also have a new issue tracker for Monit at https://bitbucket.org/tildeslash/monit/issues Please use this tracker to register new issues, but also feature requests if you want. We have already registered two new issue which we are currently working on, which are "Add argument support to 'check program’” and "Add Restart command to Monit”.
>
>
> Best regards, from the Monit team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> monit-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monit-dev

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Jan-Henrik Haukeland


On 11 Feb 2014, at 13:41, Igor Homyakov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm afraid I've missed something. As far as I can see you've  removed
> all authors credits as well as the file AUTHORS specifically. Was it
> in order of new license/agreement  clearance ?


Since the last 4-5 years or so Monit has been refactored and contribution during this time has been minimal to non-existing. So you can say it has been updated to reflect the current state.



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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Sergey B Kirpichev
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 05:47:48PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> Since the last 4-5 years or so Monit has been refactored and
> contribution during this time has been minimal to non-existing.
> So you can say it has been updated to reflect the current state.

"Minimal" is also a contribution.  It's shame for this project to play
such a games.  I doubt you will get any significant contribution,
if you don't value "small" ones.

On 11 Feb 2014, at 13:41, Igor Homyakov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm afraid I've missed something. As far as I can see you've  removed
> all authors credits as well as the file AUTHORS specifically. Was it
> in order of new license/agreement  clearance ?

Apparently, we shouldn't assume bad faith, but here it looks so.

Igor, consider contributing to the Debian's monit package instead.  I
will respect your contribution under any DFSG-compatible license as a patch.  And
it doesn't require you to sign any CLA.

Meanwhile, I'll restore AUTHORS file from the 5.2.5 (AFAIK, that's the
last release where is was provided).

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Re: [monit-dev] Monit source code repository and issue tracker - fork ahoy!

Igor Homyakov-2
In reply to this post by Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Ok. Thank you for the clarification. I'm personally fine with all
these stuff however Is there any kind of policy for the list I should
know about ? Seem to me I've not received at least one message (maybe
more) from the list Is there  a sort of moderation  or something ?

-- Best, Igor

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Jan-Henrik Haukeland
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 11 Feb 2014, at 13:41, Igor Homyakov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid I've missed something. As far as I can see you've  removed
>> all authors credits as well as the file AUTHORS specifically. Was it
>> in order of new license/agreement  clearance ?
>
>
> Since the last 4-5 years or so Monit has been refactored and contribution during this time has been minimal to non-existing. So you can say it has been updated to reflect the current state.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> monit-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/monit-dev

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fyi

Jan-Henrik Haukeland
Hi

The last few days we’ve been thinking about closing down our mailing lists.

1. After we put the Monit repository online and were looking forward to revitalising work on Monit, we have been overwhelmed by the negative feedback. This have been both depressing and a bit unfair IMHO.

2. In the old days, a development mailing list made sense, but today with bitbucket, pull requests and issue tracker the need for a list is no longer so important.

Over the years, 95% of Monit has been developed by the team and substantial contributions have always been low to non-existing. Any contributions have therefor always been appreciated, but never expected.

After some existential thinking the last few days, we still enjoy hacking on Monit, we all need a hobby, right? We also  have some interesting functional and technical ideas we want to realise and see how works out before we decide to shutdown and do something else. Anyway, please forgive this rant.



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Re: fyi

Leif Gustafson-2
To be fair, the "overwhelming" negative feedback has been related to license changes and removal of prior authors, *not* the move to bitbucket.  I think this is to be expected as those are rather significant non-technical changes.  The move to bitbucket is a good one, as it should arguably encourage development... The other changes to licensing and contribution beaurocracy not so much...

I for one applaud your hard work over the years and think you have produced a great piece of software.  I, like others, do not fully understand the motivation for the licensing changes... And removing the AUTHORS file seems unnecessarily harsh to those who have contributed, however small...

----- Reply message -----
From: "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" <[hidden email]>
To: "The monit developer list" <[hidden email]>
Subject: fyi
Date: Tue, Feb 18, 2014 7:00 AM

Hi

The last few days we’ve been thinking about closing down our mailing lists.

1. After we put the Monit repository online and were looking forward to revitalising work on Monit, we have been overwhelmed by the negative feedback. This have been both depressing and a bit unfair IMHO.

2. In the old days, a development mailing list made sense, but today with bitbucket, pull requests and issue tracker the need for a list is no longer so important. 

Over the years, 95% of Monit has been developed by the team and substantial contributions have always been low to non-existing. Any contributions have therefor always been appreciated, but never expected. 

After some existential thinking the last few days, we still enjoy hacking on Monit, we all need a hobby, right? We also  have some interesting functional and technical ideas we want to realise and see how works out before we decide to shutdown and do something else. Anyway, please forgive this rant.



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Re: fyi

Kevin Chadwick-2
previously on this list [hidden email] contributed:

> To be fair, the "overwhelming" negative feedback has been related to license changes and removal of prior authors,

I am oblivious to all this as I haven't updated my monit for a while
as it isn't exposed. Is Martin Pala still involved as I only saw his
name in replies for a long time.

I don't see anything as a replacement for a mailing list myself.

--
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
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Re: fyi

Michael Shigorin
In reply to this post by Jan-Henrik Haukeland
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 05:00:29PM +0100, Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote:
> The last few days we've been thinking about closing down our
> mailing lists.

Ouch!

> 1. After we put the Monit repository online and were looking
> forward to revitalising work on Monit, we have been overwhelmed
> by the negative feedback. This have been both depressing and a
> bit unfair IMHO.

Guys, not every negative feeback deserves that much heart pain.

> 2. In the old days, a development mailing list made sense, but
> today with bitbucket, pull requests and issue tracker the need
> for a list is no longer so important.

These can help structure the discussion of particular bugs/patches
but an issue tracker doesn't replace mailing lists (since it looks
at everything as an issue and it's not neccessarily so in reality).

I've analyzed different media during last several years and came
to conclusion that "archival" and "stream" media can be mutually
replaced to some extent but that's suboptimal and only good when
a project is too small to have a forum for (amendable and little
structured) general user discussion, mailing lists keeping those
of users who know their way around information efficient, a wiki
to keep the state of project knowledge refined, and a bugtracker
holding all the gory details of what goes on within SCM.

That is, it's harder to ask the active users/packagers regarding
something you'd like *from* community if all you've got is a bug
tracker.

> Over the years, 95% of Monit has been developed by the team and
> substantial contributions have always been low to non-existing.
> Any contributions have therefor always been appreciated, but
> never expected.

Agreed; still there were some, and it's mostly about corner cases
to me -- those ones determining the ultimate quality of a project
with the best code still working in very weird conditions.

> After some existential thinking the last few days, we still
> enjoy hacking on Monit, we all need a hobby, right? We also
> have some interesting functional and technical ideas we want to
> realise and see how works out before we decide to shutdown and
> do something else. Anyway, please forgive this rant.

Jan, I'd be fine with lurking on a mostly-silent mailing list
with hopefully constructive "noise" when appropriate, and I'd
understand you closing it down either.

I beg my pardon for 10 years old ranting regarding SMTP client,
that was a nuisance and a shame: your monit code has worked for
me all this time, and it's awesome.

Thank you, whatever you decide!

--
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin / http://altlinux.org
  ------ http://opennet.ru / http://anna-news.info

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