[nmh-workers] vixie out

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[nmh-workers] vixie out

Paul Vixie-2
folks, it's been a blast. i used MH from 1985 to 2005 exclusively, then
from 2005 to 2015 in parallel with uw-imapd, and not at all since mark
crispen's death when i moved to dovecot and Maildir.

i've helped find and fix bugs in the MH library, i regularly tested and
patched the MH (and Kerberos) parts of uw-imap, i even wrote some hooks
(thanks, jon!) for maintaining and using a BDB index for NMH's folders.

i've operated a 32-bit NMH build server back when i had 32-bit servers,
and i've started a few and joined many discussions as to software
portability and system architecture here.

but i think it's time i admitted that IMAP and MIME are my future, and
that i will probably never use NMH or MH-E again.

you are a great team but it's time i said goodbye. i'm about to answer
the unsubscribe-verify e-mail; i don't see any non-cc'd followups.

goodbye all!

--
P Vixie


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nmh-workers
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Re: vixie out

Kevin Cosgrove-2

On 29 September 2019 at 17:20, Paul Vixie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> folks, it's been a blast. i used MH from 1985 to 2005 exclusively, then
> from 2005 to 2015 in parallel with uw-imapd, and not at all since mark
> crispen's death when i moved to dovecot and Maildir.
>
> i've helped find and fix bugs in the MH library, i regularly tested and
> patched the MH (and Kerberos) parts of uw-imap, i even wrote some hooks
> (thanks, jon!) for maintaining and using a BDB index for NMH's folders.
>
> i've operated a 32-bit NMH build server back when i had 32-bit servers,
> and i've started a few and joined many discussions as to software
> portability and system architecture here.
>
> but i think it's time i admitted that IMAP and MIME are my future, and
> that i will probably never use NMH or MH-E again.
>
> you are a great team but it's time i said goodbye. i'm about to answer
> the unsubscribe-verify e-mail; i don't see any non-cc'd followups.
>
> goodbye all!

Thanks for everything you've contributed, and not just here, over the
years!  My computing life is easier and better because of your efforts.

TTFN...

--
Kevin



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Re: vixie out

Bill Wohler
In reply to this post by Paul Vixie-2
Paul Vixie <[hidden email]> writes:

> folks, it's been a blast. i used MH from 1985 to 2005 exclusively,
> then from 2005 to 2015 in parallel with uw-imapd, and not at all since
> mark crispen's death when i moved to dovecot and Maildir.

Dovecot is a server and Maildir is mail storage format. What are you
using as a UI?

> i've helped find and fix bugs in the MH library, i regularly tested
> and patched the MH (and Kerberos) parts of uw-imap, i even wrote some
> hooks (thanks, jon!) for maintaining and using a BDB index for NMH's
> folders.
>
> i've operated a 32-bit NMH build server back when i had 32-bit
> servers, and i've started a few and joined many discussions as to
> software portability and system architecture here.
>
> but i think it's time i admitted that IMAP and MIME are my future, and
> that i will probably never use NMH or MH-E again.

Yeah, with all of the security that NASA is adding, my days of fetchmail
and procmail are numbered at work, and with it, MH and MH-E, unless I
can find a way to bridge the gap between the NASA Linux email UI
(Evolution?) and the MH mail store.

> you are a great team but it's time i said goodbye. i'm about to answer
> the unsubscribe-verify e-mail; i don't see any non-cc'd followups.

And all the best to you.

> goodbye all!
>
> --
> P Vixie

--
Bill Wohler <[hidden email]> aka <[hidden email]>
http://www.newt.com/wohler/, GnuPG ID:610BD9AD


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Re: vixie out

Ken Hornstein-2
Geez, Bill, you HAVE been out of it for a little while, haven't you? :-)

>Dovecot is a server and Maildir is mail storage format. What are you
>using as a UI?

Paul has mentioned this before, but to fill you in ... I forget which
MUA he uses (I want to say Thunderbird, maybe?) but the key point here
is Dovecot stores it's messages in Maildir folders.  So he was interested
in tools that could work directly on Maildir folders.  This is a _BIT_
challenging.

As a larger note ... I always thought the use of Maildir as a message
folder format was a bit weird.  I have no objections if people want to
add that support for Maildir folders, but there are some challenges, and
I think the number of people who would find that useful is small compared
to the number of people who would find IMAP useful, so it wasn't something
I was going to work on (we do, today, have support in inc(1) for Maildir).

>Yeah, with all of the security that NASA is adding, my days of fetchmail
>and procmail are numbered at work, and with it, MH and MH-E, unless I
>can find a way to bridge the gap between the NASA Linux email UI
>(Evolution?) and the MH mail store.

I can't speak for exactly what you guys are doing, but I believe we
support all of the relevant security protocols with regards to POP
and SMTP.  So if you guys have a POP server and a SMTP server you point
Evolution to, I don't think there's a reason you couldn't use nmh with it.

--Ken

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Re: vixie out

Bill Wohler
Ken Hornstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Geez, Bill, you HAVE been out of it for a little while, haven't you? :-)
>
> >Dovecot is a server and Maildir is mail storage format. What are you
> >using as a UI?
>
> Paul has mentioned this before, but to fill you in ... I forget which
> MUA he uses (I want to say Thunderbird, maybe?) but the key point here
> is Dovecot stores it's messages in Maildir folders.  So he was interested
> in tools that could work directly on Maildir folders.  This is a _BIT_
> challenging.

Thanks for that. My mail to [hidden email] bounced.

> As a larger note ... I always thought the use of Maildir as a message
> folder format was a bit weird.  I have no objections if people want to
> add that support for Maildir folders, but there are some challenges, and
> I think the number of people who would find that useful is small compared
> to the number of people who would find IMAP useful, so it wasn't something
> I was going to work on (we do, today, have support in inc(1) for Maildir).
>
> >Yeah, with all of the security that NASA is adding, my days of fetchmail
> >and procmail are numbered at work, and with it, MH and MH-E, unless I
> >can find a way to bridge the gap between the NASA Linux email UI
> >(Evolution?) and the MH mail store.
>
> I can't speak for exactly what you guys are doing, but I believe we
> support all of the relevant security protocols with regards to POP
> and SMTP.  So if you guys have a POP server and a SMTP server you point
> Evolution to, I don't think there's a reason you couldn't use nmh with it.

The new system is Office 365 and all employees are *required* to use
Lookout on their Windows and Mac systems as an MUA using a badge for
authentication. Given that, I'm pessimistic there is an open way to
access NASA email. Linux users currently have a waiver to continue using
IMAP, but that will go away once NASA IT finds a solution. It is likely
to be a dictated MUA (as with the Mac and Windows) rather than a general
mechanism.

> --Ken

--
Bill Wohler <[hidden email]> aka <[hidden email]>
http://www.newt.com/wohler/, GnuPG ID:610BD9AD

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Re: vixie out

Ken Hornstein-2
>The new system is Office 365 and all employees are *required* to use
>Lookout on their Windows and Mac systems as an MUA using a badge for
>authentication. Given that, I'm pessimistic there is an open way to
>access NASA email. Linux users currently have a waiver to continue using
>IMAP, but that will go away once NASA IT finds a solution. It is likely
>to be a dictated MUA (as with the Mac and Windows) rather than a general
>mechanism.

Geez, you really should be more up-to-date on the mailing list :-)

I can't promise this will work for you, but this message might be
helpful:

  https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/nmh-workers/2019-05/msg00029.html

--Ken

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Re: vixie out

Bill Wohler
Ken Hornstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >The new system is Office 365 and all employees are *required* to use
> >Lookout on their Windows and Mac systems as an MUA using a badge for
> >authentication. Given that, I'm pessimistic there is an open way to
> >access NASA email. Linux users currently have a waiver to continue using
> >IMAP, but that will go away once NASA IT finds a solution. It is likely
> >to be a dictated MUA (as with the Mac and Windows) rather than a general
> >mechanism.
>
> Geez, you really should be more up-to-date on the mailing list :-)

We're in agreement there!

> I can't promise this will work for you, but this message might be
> helpful:
>
>   https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/nmh-workers/2019-05/msg00029.html

Indeed. If you're still associated with the navy, you're certainly
feeling the same pain, as the requirements come from the NIST, I think.
I'll look forward to trying it when I return to the office. Thanks for
pointing out the thread as I clearly missed it during my skim.

> --Ken

--
Bill Wohler <[hidden email]> aka <[hidden email]>
http://www.newt.com/wohler/, GnuPG ID:610BD9AD

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Re: vixie out

Ken Hornstein-2
>Indeed. If you're still associated with the navy, you're certainly
>feeling the same pain, as the requirements come from the NIST, I think.

I have more than a passing familiarity with those NIST requirements, and
there are a LOT of them so I can't claim to be an expert.  But here's
what I believe to be true:

- There is no requirement to use Office 365
- There is no prohibition on using IMAP

Now I have seen stuff about requiring smart card authentication.  I
believe that at work we can legitimately claim we have implemented
"smart card authentication" and that it works fine with the shipping
version of nmh today.

Email signing ... well, I know the pieces are all there, and I've done it
manually with various command-line utilities.  I just need to figure out
a good way to handle integration.

I believe what is happening is that the IT staff look at a whole
pile of NIST requirements, throw up their hands and say, "Hey, what did
everyone else do?  Office 365?  Ok, we'll do that".  And to paraphrase
the old adage about IBM, no one ever got fired for buying Office 365
(and to extend that further, if Office 365 gets broken into you're not
going to get fired because they'd have to fire everyone).  And if it
screws over a small subset of users ... well, too bad.

I don't particularly like this state of affairs, but it's not like
any of this is surprising.  It's another reason I would like to get IMAP
support into nmh; so many projects, so little time.

--Ken